OAX & MIDI

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  • #10820
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi there,

    I am very curious 😉

    I wonder whether anybody in this Wersi section know that MIDI In doesn‘t work. MIDI In 1 does nothing at all and MIDI In 2 does route sequencer channels only. Or is it just me?

    Cheers

    Juergen

    • This topic was modified 11 months ago by Curt.
    #10832
    Curt
    Keymaster
    @immusiccm

    Juergen,

    Yes and no – Try this. Load any sequence. Now try MIDI In1. It will now work. That would appear to be a bug, not sure?

    I’ll send a note to Uli and ask.

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Curt.
    #10834
    Derek
    Participant
    @derekmatts

    Hi Curt,

    Thank you for checking Midi in regards pedals. I now have a used OAX 1 which has several problems like a cracked screen which is on order, but is working fine. Also have a lower keyboard module and 17 note pedalboard. The OAX 1 is as I understand like the OAX 500 which has Midi in 1 & 2 but no USB Midi.
    Have tried to control Wersi via Midi without success, hence why I included in this thread.

    Connected Genos/out to Wersi/in and transmitted over channel 3. I can monitor the signal going out from Genos but no response from Wersi? – have tried most other channels with same response.

    Any hints as to what if anything I should set or try on Wersi etc?? would be most welcome.

    Derek……

    #10835
    Mark Robbins
    Participant
    @markrobbins

    Derek,

    Could the previous owner have messed around with the factory default MIDI setup on the OAX1? I have not used MIDI since OAS, but what you are trying to do sounds pretty simple, and the same principle that you would expect a stand-alone sequencer to adopt, ie. inject data from an external source on CH3.

    Have you tried connecting the other way around to see if the OAX1 sends CH3 data to the Genos? – assume you have tried a second cable etc to prove the cable is not duff etc.

    Cheers
    Mark

    #10847
    immusic
    Keymaster
    @admin

    Derek – Here’s the response from Wersi to my question. The simple answer is you need to send control 7 (volume) and a program change to “load” the internal MIDI channel. After that, it should work fine. In my earlier post I mentioned loading a sequence first (which would also send controller 7’s and program change. Either way works – just which you prefer or find easier?

    How are you sending data to OAX? Are you using a DAW or another keyboard?

    From Wersi:

    MIDI IN 1 -> 16 channels -> in the extensive data list you can see the PRG change commands and the assignment of the drums, which these days often no longer correspond to the GM standard!

    Note: the tracks only play if a PRG change command and controller 7 have also been sent. How should the channel know which sound to play. I could put the piano anywhere. But 16 MIDI channels with piano would rarely match customer requirements. And if you play a MIDI file from an external sequencer, the data such as PRG change and volume and expression pedal, etc. are already there.

    MIDI IN 2 -> plays on the style or sequence channels. So with their registrations.

    #10849
    Derek
    Participant
    @derekmatts

    Hi All,

    Thanks for the suggestions but have now sorted. I must remember I’m dealing with Wersi – like the line output:-

    Line out 1 is labelled 2 at the back and 2 is labelled 1.

    Midi 1 is labelled 2 at the back and Midi 2 is labelled 1.

    Silly me!

    Regards,
    Derek………

    #10882
    Curt
    Keymaster
    @immusiccm

    So – things are now working as you expect?

    • This reply was modified 1 year ago by Curt.
    #10896
    Derek
    Participant
    @derekmatts

    Hi Curt,

    Yes things seem to work now as expected. So far I’ve only used my Genos to play the Wersi pedal sounds to see if possible, as I was thinking of building a 2 octave pedalboard.
    But Allens Music have provided me with a used 17 note pedalboard instead of the small 13 note. Not sure if its worth the trouble for 4 extra notes?
    I have installed the separate swell pedal on the top of pedal board which I find is better than it sliding all over the place.

    One small problem I do have is Allens have given me a lower keyboard module which you stand the OAX1 on giving 2 keyboards which work fine. But the OAX1 comes with internal speakers which are fitted underneath the top keyboard and stick out about 1/4 of an inch. Which when put on top of the lower keyboard just touch the back of the lower keyboard jamming the keys. I’ve solved this by installing 4 rubber feet to lift it up. Was wondering if anybody else had this problem, maybe Wersi have changed the design slightly as the Top part is a lot older than the bottom or even maybe the speakers have been replaced with bigger ones??
    Was not sure how to start a new forum for this ??

    Regards,
    Derek……

    #10897
    Curt
    Keymaster
    @immusiccm

    Derek – Good idea to start that as a new topic, so it doesn’t get lost in the MIDI discussion. To do that – Go back one level to the “Wersi Products” section and then scroll down. You should see an option to start a new topic?

    #10944
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi Curt,

    I got the same response like you from Uli Wildhack.

    But there is one thing you should be aware of. How should e.g. a midi pedal send a volume (control 7) and a PRG change?

    I understand the idea of Uli Wildshack but in my opninion there is no reason to send this sequence: If you start up OAX there is a default setting loaded. The only thing you need to control the bass (in this example) is to use the correct MIDI in Channel (usually 3) and you are able to control the default setting. If you don´t like the selected sound you could either change the sound (PRG change) via the organ interface or via your controller (e.g. the GENOS).

    @Derek: if you are using an original Wersi pedal you have to connect it to the internal MIDI bus. This is the one that controls the lower manual and the pedal as well (usually they have Sub-D connectors). And that´s the problem. On one hand the original Wersi pedal can not be connected to the MIDI in 1 or 2 of the OAX System on the other hand a standard MIDI pedsal can not be connected to the internal MIDI bus!

    BR

    Juergen

    Any other keyboard that I know does it the same way (e.g. the Yamaha PSR SX 700 or the GSI DMC 122 the masterkeyboard version of the crumar mojo even expanders are doing it this way).

    But as far as I know Uli Wildhack is working on a smart solution…

    BR

    Juergen

    #10954
    Torgny
    Participant
    @torgny

    Hi!

    I’m interested in this setup, OAX1 with lower and a pedal board. The Wersi 13p and 17p option with a loose expression pedal doesn’t seems so nice though (strange they don’t offer the 25p as an option) so I think I’m only interested if I know that I can add another Midi pedal board and you could always mount the Wersi expression in some way on that I guess. Viscount, but also some others, has a reasonable priced 25p (intended for their clones) or 27p (intended for their church organ keyboards).

    I agree with Juergen. The way it really should work is just to set the sending midi channel, on the pedal board, to to the receiving bass midi channel (3 ?) on the Wersi. Then the sound should be chosed as usual, direct on the organ, the pedal part.
    So can I trust that this will work or is it a real problem? (didn’t fully understand from the posts)

    Thank you

    #10956
    Curt
    Keymaster
    @immusiccm

    I don’t have an OAX1, so I’m basing my comment on how my organ works. Currently, you need to send bank, program change, and volume information via MIDI In – You are not able to control directly from the control panel of the instrument.

    Anyone with an OAX1 that can confirm that?

    #10959
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi Curt,

    that‘s absolutely correct.


    @Torgny
    : Currently you are not able to control the bass of OAX1 with a standard midi pedal. Wersi is already working on this matter.

    Personally I think this could be a killer criteria for one or the other to buy a OAX1. In every other regard it‘s a great instrument…

    Cheers

    Juergen

    #11002
    Torgny
    Participant
    @torgny

    Hi!

    Thank you for your response.
    That was a surprise.
    I have not received any answer from Wersi (oax@wersi.net). Yet at least.
    I also suggested them to think of at 25 pedal board variant for the OAX1.

    When the current situation has calmed down I may take a trip down to Germany if there is any place where one can be tried out and then see.

    #11003
    Torgny
    Participant
    @torgny

    Guess it may be possible to buy a 13p wersi board and transfer their wiring to a standard midi pedal board but I don’t take my chances on that.

    #11004
    Derek
    Participant
    @derekmatts

    HiTorgny,

    I have just obtained a used OAX1 with lower keyboard from Allens Music UK and they managed to get me a 17note pedalboard. I found the swell pedal a real pain and have fitted it to the top of the pedalboard. This for me works great having it all in one unit.
    My original intention was to build a 25 note midi pedalboard but due to this midi problem will stay with the 17note for now.

    Regards,
    Derek….

    #11005
    Derek
    Participant
    @derekmatts

    Curt,

    Yes you are right regards the OAX1 Midi. There is also no USB Midi as with the OAX500.

    If you want me to try anything on OAX1 let me know etc…..

    Regards,
    Derek……

    #11083
    BGJay
    Participant
    @bgjay

    Hi,
    I discovered something very odd with the modulation wheel under v2.7 and noticed it was still present under V2.8 (I mentiontioned it to Wersi and they said it was deliberate).

    SO – I was using external midi from the Wersi OAX to a separate computer to run the OrganTeq VST (same people who wrote Pianoteq [good PT videos BTW Curt].

    It worked perfectly. NOTE: I did it to external computer because I find the Wersi internal VST host very problematical and very inflexible (and actually I really don’t like it!). NOTE: Please don’t hijack this thread with a discussion about the VST Host.

    Anyway – Organteq has 2 foot controllers: an expression pedal (which maps nicely to the Wersi’s own expression pedal) and a Crescendo pedal – which clearly doesn’t have an equivalent. I decided that I would map the Wersi’s Modulation wheel to the latter as they had a identical range and should work nicely. The only problem is that they didn’t map well together. Turning the modulation wheel up to full only moved the crescendo pedal down a bit. On investigation I discovered that reason was that the modulation wheel does not send control change values of 0 to 127 that I expected – it sends 0 to 42 (ish – sorry – can’t now remember the exact number or whether it was decimal or hexadecimal – duh!!).

    Actually I cannot see why this should be the case. I feel that Wersi are not following the midi spec and the result is that any sound module etc. connected to the Wersi’s midi out may not perform as expected.

    What do people think? Clearly I could use the new CC slider (etc) – but thats not the point – I still feel its wrong.

    B

    #11084
    Curt
    Keymaster
    @immusiccm

    As a reference point, I just tried two different keyboards and found the following:

    Komplete Kontrol S61 MKII – Mod wheel sends 0-127.
    Ketron SD9 – Mod wheel sends 0-127.

    #11086
    BGJay
    Participant
    @bgjay

    Curt

    Thats what I would expect as modulation is a standard CC value – and what I have always found. Its just that the Wersi (in my opinion) is wrong. I assumed my 600LS was faulty – so was more than surprised when Wersi said thats what is supposed to happen and I cannot yet think of any justification becuase its not following the midi specification.

    I mainly raise it so that people are aware when they use HW sound modules and extrernal software VST’s.

    B

    #11131
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi B

    you are absolutely right! Wersi does not follow MIDI standards (see MIDI in topic). In their brochures they are mentioning MIDI in and MIDI out ports. Usually every other manufacturer is following at least basic MIDI standards. I don´t understand why so many people are buying not really cheap instruments and don´t care about the MIDI implementation…

    You are really welcome

    Juergen

    #11200
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi Torgny,

      Guess it may be possible to buy a 13p wersi board and transfer their wiring to a standard midi pedal board but I don’t take my chances on that.

    This is not a good idea. Almost every manufacturer is able to implemnent basic MIDI functions as it should be (e.g. Hammond, Crumar, Viscount, Yamaha…you name it). Wersi isn´t one of them.

    They use an internal MIDI bus. But this bus is a “custom” bus. The picture shows the logicboard that is used to connect e.g. the lower manual or the bass pedal to the OAX1. So this isn´t MIDI standard at at all because this board has to be programmed to work properly with the internal MIDI bus. If you buy a 25 standard MIDI pedal you can not take the electronics of the 13 or 17 pedal Wersi version. It will not fit. I think it is done intentionally but that´s only my humble opinion.

    Anyway. To avoid this the MIDI standard allows to connect input devices to send on “standard channels”. #3 is the standard channel for the bass in nearly every MIDI capable instrument. So the only thing you have to do is sending a MIDI signal on channel #3 into the Wersi by using MIDI In 1 because MIDI In 2 is used for sequencer/accompaniment input. But this doesn´t work because you have to send a volume and a program change signal as well! According to MIDI standards this is not intended. And a usual MIDI pedal is not able to send more than the key information signal on channel 3.

    But Wersi promisied to implement a MIDI direct in on MIDI In 1. Now we have to wait for one of the next software upades…

    Hope this helps a little bit

    Juergen

    • This reply was modified 11 months ago by JK.
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    #13638
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi guys,

    about 6 months ago I asked Wersi (Uli Wildhack) with respect to the external MIDI bass control implementation. He said that he will implement a MIDI direct option like in OAS. I just wrote an email to Wersi asking how far things are gone. I hope there will be an answer soon.

    By the way. Wersi UK (Allan´s Music Center) gave a hint that there could be a new OAX version soon. Anybody heard about it yet?

    Best regards

    Juergen

    • This reply was modified 6 months ago by JK.
    #13640
    Bill
    Participant
    @abacus

    The pandemic has probably slowed things down, however we are coming to the time frame of quite a few previous updates, so probably worthwhile to keep an eye on the main Wersi website.

    Bill

    #13641
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi Bill,

    yeah I will watch it 😉

    Nice Avatar, Bill 🙂 An Abacus Duo…I got one as well…

    Juergen

    #13661
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi Bill,

    this is my OAX1 plus HX3.5 Setup. Maybe I should exchange the picture of my good old Wersi Galaxy for the OAX Setup…

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    #13663
    Bill
    Participant
    @abacus

    Out of all the Wersi instruments, for me 3 stand out as photogenic, Abacus Duo, Louvre and Sonic OAX600, which is why my avatar has varied over time (I have also used the Kontakt avatar as well) as it’s nice to have variations.

    As to your HX avatar it is going to be difficult to crop to fit the site format unless you are happy with white bars top and bottom (Or have an image that is not correctly proportioned) so you may need to chop off part of the HX for and ideal fit. (You can also try taking a photo at different angles)

    If you want to have some fun you could also have a picture of a Pergamon to create a bit of envy.😁

    BTW: did you ever use the VST Host in your Abacus? (Assuming your on OAS7)

    Bill

    #13664
    JK
    Participant
    @joeyk

    Hi Bill,

    nope, I never used a VST. Not in my Abacus Duo and not in the OAX to date…

    We will see how it works. I got the file today (-:

    #14717
    Torgny
    Participant
    @torgny

    Hi!
    Anyone know if the issue with using a standard midi pedal board with OAX1 is now fixed in FW 2.85?
    So that you can control the pedal part as usual in OAX when having a midi pedal board instead of Wersi pedal board and thereby have the possibility to freely choose pedal board?

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